Interesting coincidence; but I suspect the basic saying is far older. Marx also posited that each socioeconomic system caused the rise of its opposite, which would destroy it. (He got the idea from Hegel.)
Gee--the stuff one finds when digging into old German philosophers! STAND BACK!
Fichte 1762-1814 Hegel 1770-1831 Kierkegaard 1813-1855 Marx 1818-1883 Mark Twain 1835-1910
From Wikipedia article on Hegel:
Hegel has been seen in the twentieth century as the originator of the thesis, antithesis, synthesis triad, but as an explicit phrase it originated with Johann Gottlieb Fichte.
From the Wikipedia article on Fichte: “Søren Kierkegaard was also a student of the writings of Fichte:”
Fichte believed that "active citizenship, civic freedom and even property rights should be withheld from women, whose calling was to subject themselves utterly to the authority of their fathers and husbands." Rather a far cry from “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.” ======================= From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesis,_antithesis,_synthesis
Gustav E. Mueller (1958) concurs that Hegel was not a proponent of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis, and clarifies what the concept of dialectic might have meant in Hegel's thought.[9]
"Dialectic" does not for Hegel mean "thesis, antithesis, and synthesis." Dialectic means that any "ism" – which has a polar opposite, or is a special viewpoint leaving "the rest" to itself – must be criticized by the logic of philosophical thought, whose problem is reality as such, the "World-itself".
According to Mueller, the attribution of this tripartite dialectic to Hegel is the result of "inept reading" and simplistic translations which do not take into account the genesis of Hegel's terms:
Hegel's greatness is as indisputable as his obscurity. The matter is due to his peculiar terminology and style; they are undoubtedly involved and complicated, and seem excessively abstract. These linguistic troubles, in turn, have given rise to legends which are like perverse and magic spectacles – once you wear them, the text simply vanishes. Theodor Haering's monumental and standard work has for the first time cleared up the linguistic problem. By carefully analyzing every sentence from his early writings, which were published only in this century, he has shown how Hegel's terminology evolved – though it was complete when he began to publish. Hegel's contemporaries were immediately baffled, because what was clear to him was not clear to his readers, who were not initiated into the genesis of his terms.
An example of how a legend can grow on inept reading is this: Translate "Begriff" by "concept," "Vernunft" by "reason" and "Wissenschaft" by "science" – and they are all good dictionary translations – and you have transformed the great critic of rationalism and irrationalism into a ridiculous champion of an absurd pan-logistic rationalism and scientism.
The most vexing and devastating Hegel legend is that everything is thought in "thesis, antithesis, and synthesis."[10]
Karl Marx (1818–1883) and Friedrich Engels (1820–1895) adopted and extended the triad, especially in Marx's The Poverty of Philosophy (1847). Here, in Chapter 2, Marx is obsessed by the word "thesis";[11] it forms an important part of the basis for the Marxist theory of history.[12] =========================
So, did I miss something, or does what you posted actually not state which of those philosophical dudes came up with the quote I used? Pretty funny that most of them were contemporaries. Toss up?
Vaccine Chaos Is Looming [Click] It’s bad enough that the Trump administration decided to put all its support into two versions of an untried vaccine design, but that is just the beginning.
Moderator Chris Wallace criticized as Trump derails debate [Click] “Fox News host blamed for failing to control debate stage as president spends evening talking over others” Yep, pop-up lecterns or isolation booths with audio kill switches would seem to be in order.
Hey! Jimmy Kimmel had Bernie on tonight and they discussed the debate. And Bernie mentioned that if the Dems get in, then Bernie will be Chair of the Subcommittee on Health, and they will go after big pharma. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO1o66Ti2bA
I just heard some excerpts of the “presidential debate” on the NHK morning news broadcast. Glad I missed it. Here are headlines from politicalwire.com; they pretty well tell the story, or at least enough of it (in chronological order):
Taegan Goddard: My Reaction to the First Presidential Debate Instant Polls Finds Biden Won Tonight’s Debate Proud Boys ‘Stand By’ After Trump Debate Call-Out Health and Human Services Ad Blitz Sputters House Affirms Peaceful Transfer of Power An Epic Moment of National Shame The Debate Was Always Going to Be About Trump The Worst Presidential Debate In Living Memory Biden Cashes In on Debate Undecided Voter Says Trump Acted Like a ‘Crackhead’ Trump Plans Big Wisconsin Rallies Despite Virus Surge Trump Still Can’t Make the Race About Biden ‘Will You Just Shut Up, Man?’ ‘Portland Sheriff’ Says He ‘Will Never’ Support Trump Four More Years of This? Trump Burns the First Debate Down Santorum Says Trump Made a ‘Huge Mistake’ Biden Hits New Spending Highs In Battleground States The Morning After an Awful Debate
From talkingpointsmemo.com (in random order)
Josh Marshall: The Morning After Trump Campaign Tries To Clean Up POTUS’ Proud Boys Remark Trump Sure Seems Upset At Chris Wallace After a Disastrous Debate Night Fox News Tries To Coach Trump On How To Not Crash And Burn At Next Debate After Trump’s Debate Tantrum, Commentators Question Whether Others Should Go Forward Fox Host Blasts Trump For Not Disavowing White Supremacists, Says He ‘Ruined Biggest Layup’ In ‘History Of Debates’ Harris Calls Trump’s Refusal To Condemn White Supremacy ‘Dog Whistling Through A Bullhorn’ Trump’s Shit Show: Media Shocked By President’s Off-The-Rails Debate Debacle
Upon reflection, I expect that Harris will use Trump's performance yesterday to [figuratively] dismember Pence. Her debate prep may be altered already. I would almost begin to feel sorry for Pence if he weren't such a slimy character.
I take issue with that comment on behalf of all the kids who have taken Adderall, including our Youngest. DT was like a kid who needed Adderall and didn't get it...!! He was hyper and unfocused. Adderall has a centering effect.
Point well taken. Methamphetamine too can calm people with attention deficit disorder, although it is potentially a lot more dangerous than Adderall. Weird.
Back from our walk. The Trump sign across the street is still up, but the one at the west end of the street (we live on a 500-yard cul de sac) is gone.
* I called the Health Dept and Craig there is looking into it. He's pretty sure the number isn't correct, since there were four testing sites working yesterday at full capacity. Ha! He'll call me back once he can find the number. He actually asked me why I am interested to know. I told him I keep track of it, and that since it's a site the public accesses, we really ought to keep it accurate.
"Who could have known?" Not this one-time Illinois poll watcher for sure. The article, despite noting that states have different laws, seems specific to Pennsylvania. For one thing, I have no concept of what a "satellite polling place" may be. But more importantly, to the best of my recollection, no one asks who has asked you to poll watch. You simply sign in as a poll watcher. I also find the claim that poll watchers are usually paid so outrageous it almost sounds like they got that from Trump.
“I’m just sad with the way last night turned out. I never dreamt that it would go off the tracks the way it did.” — Fox New anchor Chris Wallace, quoted by the New York Times, on last night’s presidential debate.
Rage, narcissism, self-loathing, fear – each vividly on display. We got a clear view last night of something very basic about this moment. The country isn’t so much facing an election as a hostage negotiation. Trump is losing, probably not just the presidency but his immunity from the law. Does [he come along] peacefully? Or is he one of those degenerates who kills his wife and kids on the way out?
If he’s going to lose he wants to burn the country down.
As my vivid and ugly analogy suggests, this isn’t strategy. It’s instinct. It’s rage.
All the more reason for him to be on Air Force One headed to his bolt hole the evening before the inauguration. Except that he probably doesn't have the brains to have prepared a bolt hole. He should have had a group studying how it was done by Batista, Marcos, Idi Amin and others. If he should actually be prepared to fly the coop and do so, I take back my disparagement of his mental capacity.
As I was putting the trash out a little while ago I looked up and saw that the moon had just fully risen; it was full (there was just a trace of twilight left) and a beautiful orange. I figured it must be from smoke. Then as I walked back inside to fetch the remainder of the trash I wondered if it might be an eclipse. Sure enough, when I went outside again it was higher in the sky but still all orange. Just now I looked again; it is still all orange at an elevation of maybe 35 or 40 degrees, ergo lunar eclipse.
Well, the Innertubes tell me there is no lunar eclipse, so it must be that the moon is colored by smoke. But it is still very orange, so there must be an unusual amount of smoke high in the sky.
I am enjoying it, and look forward to enjoying it even more as it develops. I am at the moment particularly looking forward to getting my ballot--should arrive Wednesday or Thursday of next week, I think.
"Contained within evil are the seeds of its own destruction."
ReplyDeleteI googled the quote to remember who first said it. And guess what Google gave me for a reference!
http://howardempowered.blogspot.com/2016/12/happy-friday_16.html
Talk about coming full circle!
Interesting coincidence; but I suspect the basic saying is far older. Marx also posited that each socioeconomic system caused the rise of its opposite, which would destroy it. (He got the idea from Hegel.)
DeleteI find something very similar in Mark Twain, but nothing (!) in Bartlett's Familiar Quotations.
DeleteGee--I clicked on the link to HEP and what should I encounter but a lecture by some old fart.
DeleteThe oldest reference I can so far locate is Hegel, who predated both Marx and Mark Twain.
DeleteCan you post the link to the reference?
DeleteWhat I am finding is that Marx said "Capitalism contains the seeds of its own destruction."
And later Bonhoeffer wrote that "Evil contains the seeds of its own destruction."
And still later MLK, Jr. use that last quote.
And I am trying to discover whether Marx was influenced by Kierkegaard, and whether Kierkegaard said it too.
And I assume by Hegel you mean Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel who influenced Marx. But I cannot find a quote of the saying by him.
Gee--the stuff one finds when digging into old German philosophers! STAND BACK!
DeleteFichte 1762-1814
Hegel 1770-1831
Kierkegaard 1813-1855
Marx 1818-1883
Mark Twain 1835-1910
From Wikipedia article on Hegel:
Hegel has been seen in the twentieth century as the originator of the thesis, antithesis, synthesis triad, but as an explicit phrase it originated with Johann Gottlieb Fichte.
From the Wikipedia article on Fichte:
“Søren Kierkegaard was also a student of the writings of Fichte:”
Fichte believed that "active citizenship, civic freedom and even property rights should be withheld from women, whose calling was to subject themselves utterly to the authority of their fathers and husbands." Rather a far cry from “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.”
=======================
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesis,_antithesis,_synthesis
Gustav E. Mueller (1958) concurs that Hegel was not a proponent of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis, and clarifies what the concept of dialectic might have meant in Hegel's thought.[9]
"Dialectic" does not for Hegel mean "thesis, antithesis, and synthesis." Dialectic means that any "ism" – which has a polar opposite, or is a special viewpoint leaving "the rest" to itself – must be criticized by the logic of philosophical thought, whose problem is reality as such, the "World-itself".
According to Mueller, the attribution of this tripartite dialectic to Hegel is the result of "inept reading" and simplistic translations which do not take into account the genesis of Hegel's terms:
Hegel's greatness is as indisputable as his obscurity. The matter is due to his peculiar terminology and style; they are undoubtedly involved and complicated, and seem excessively abstract. These linguistic troubles, in turn, have given rise to legends which are like perverse and magic spectacles – once you wear them, the text simply vanishes. Theodor Haering's monumental and standard work has for the first time cleared up the linguistic problem. By carefully analyzing every sentence from his early writings, which were published only in this century, he has shown how Hegel's terminology evolved – though it was complete when he began to publish. Hegel's contemporaries were immediately baffled, because what was clear to him was not clear to his readers, who were not initiated into the genesis of his terms.
An example of how a legend can grow on inept reading is this: Translate "Begriff" by "concept," "Vernunft" by "reason" and "Wissenschaft" by "science" – and they are all good dictionary translations – and you have transformed the great critic of rationalism and irrationalism into a ridiculous champion of an absurd pan-logistic rationalism and scientism.
The most vexing and devastating Hegel legend is that everything is thought in "thesis, antithesis, and synthesis."[10]
Karl Marx (1818–1883) and Friedrich Engels (1820–1895) adopted and extended the triad, especially in Marx's The Poverty of Philosophy (1847). Here, in Chapter 2, Marx is obsessed by the word "thesis";[11] it forms an important part of the basis for the Marxist theory of history.[12]
=========================
So, did I miss something, or does what you posted actually not state which of those philosophical dudes came up with the quote I used? Pretty funny that most of them were contemporaries. Toss up?
DeleteGuardian Long Read: Inside the airline industry's meltdown [Click] Very interesting.
ReplyDeleteVaccine Chaos Is Looming [Click] It’s bad enough that the Trump administration decided to put all its support into two versions of an untried vaccine design, but that is just the beginning.
ReplyDeleteRepublicans Are Trapped on Preexisting Conditions [Click] Their health-care plans’ lack of protections is a feature, not a bug.
ReplyDeleteModerator Chris Wallace criticized as Trump derails debate [Click] “Fox News host blamed for failing to control debate stage as president spends evening talking over others” Yep, pop-up lecterns or isolation booths with audio kill switches would seem to be in order.
ReplyDeleteWho could have controlled that debate?
DeleteHey! Jimmy Kimmel had Bernie on tonight and they discussed the debate. And Bernie mentioned that if the Dems get in, then Bernie will be Chair of the Subcommittee on Health, and they will go after big pharma.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO1o66Ti2bA
puddle, note for you on the last thread.
ReplyDeleteAlso...keep us posted on your river level!
(We're getting the rain tonight.)
I just heard some excerpts of the “presidential debate” on the NHK morning news broadcast. Glad I missed it. Here are headlines from politicalwire.com; they pretty well tell the story, or at least enough of it (in chronological order):
ReplyDeleteTaegan Goddard: My Reaction to the First Presidential Debate
Instant Polls Finds Biden Won Tonight’s Debate
Proud Boys ‘Stand By’ After Trump Debate Call-Out
Health and Human Services Ad Blitz Sputters
House Affirms Peaceful Transfer of Power
An Epic Moment of National Shame
The Debate Was Always Going to Be About Trump
The Worst Presidential Debate In Living Memory
Biden Cashes In on Debate
Undecided Voter Says Trump Acted Like a ‘Crackhead’
Trump Plans Big Wisconsin Rallies Despite Virus Surge
Trump Still Can’t Make the Race About Biden
‘Will You Just Shut Up, Man?’
‘Portland Sheriff’ Says He ‘Will Never’ Support Trump
Four More Years of This?
Trump Burns the First Debate Down
Santorum Says Trump Made a ‘Huge Mistake’
Biden Hits New Spending Highs In Battleground States
The Morning After an Awful Debate
From talkingpointsmemo.com (in random order)
Josh Marshall: The Morning After
Trump Campaign Tries To Clean Up POTUS’ Proud Boys Remark
Trump Sure Seems Upset At Chris Wallace After a Disastrous Debate Night
Fox News Tries To Coach Trump On How To Not Crash And Burn At Next Debate
After Trump’s Debate Tantrum, Commentators Question Whether Others Should Go Forward
Fox Host Blasts Trump For Not Disavowing White Supremacists, Says He ‘Ruined Biggest Layup’ In ‘History Of Debates’
Harris Calls Trump’s Refusal To Condemn White Supremacy ‘Dog Whistling Through A Bullhorn’
Trump’s Shit Show: Media Shocked By President’s Off-The-Rails Debate Debacle
The VP debate is next week; Pence's problems just got a lot worse, methinks.
ReplyDeleteUpon reflection, I expect that Harris will use Trump's performance yesterday to [figuratively] dismember Pence. Her debate prep may be altered already. I would almost begin to feel sorry for Pence if he weren't such a slimy character.
DeleteAuntie Beeb:
ReplyDeleteHow the world reacted to the presidential debate: “Childish,” “Gruelling,” and “an unwatchable fever dream”
Presidential debate: “The loser is us, the American people”
Who won the Trump-Biden Debate?
In the poltical equivalent of a food fight, the winner was the man who emerged least covered in slop.
From The Hill: CNN's Lemon: Trump looked like a kid prescribed 'too much Adderall' [Click]
ReplyDeleteI take issue with that comment on behalf of all the kids who have taken Adderall, including our Youngest. DT was like a kid who needed Adderall and didn't get it...!! He was hyper and unfocused. Adderall has a centering effect.
DeletePoint well taken. Methamphetamine too can calm people with attention deficit disorder, although it is potentially a lot more dangerous than Adderall. Weird.
DeleteA little smokey here, AQI 87, temperature lower than yesterday. We will take our walk this morning.
ReplyDeleteYay!
DeleteBack from our walk. The Trump sign across the street is still up, but the one at the west end of the street (we live on a 500-yard cul de sac) is gone.
ReplyDeleteExperimenting a little. Don't know if this will work.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.cdn-liker.com/uploads/post_images/5f74c443b5ae8.jpg
It works.
DeleteHey, I was pretty sure I'd posted a reply here earlier.
DeleteIt definitely works and I really liked it. Thanks, Susan! Keep 'em coming.
VT: 1752 (+3)
ReplyDelete58 deaths (9 wks, 1 day)
89 active cases
Recovered: 1606 (+5)
In Hospital 1 (+1)
Tests 162,727 (-20?*)
* I called the Health Dept and Craig there is looking into it. He's pretty sure the number isn't correct, since there were four testing sites working yesterday at full capacity. Ha! He'll call me back once he can find the number.
He actually asked me why I am interested to know. I told him I keep track of it, and that since it's a site the public accesses, we really ought to keep it accurate.
See below about kinetics of coronavirus spread.
DeleteCraig did not call back and the site has not been updated either. We'll see what tomorrow reveals.
DeleteDead Heat in South Carolina [Click] Senate and President. . .
ReplyDeleteAnd they start counting absentee ballots at 0900 hrs Election Day (although they can't process them until the day before).
DeleteIt won’t be dull.
DeleteTrump went off the rails whenever COVID came up in the “debate.” [Click]
ReplyDeleteThe un-flu-like kinetics of coronavirus spread point the way to effective control [Click]
ReplyDeleteMother Jones: Yes, there certainly was a winner in last night’s presidential debate, and his name is Joe Biden. [Click] Step back, calm down, and take a look at what happened.
ReplyDeleteNew Battleground Polls
ReplyDeleteSeptember 30, 2020 By Taegan Goddard
IOWA!!
From RABA Research:
IOWA: Biden 48%, Trump 46%
From University of New Hampshire:
NEW HAMPSHIRE: Biden 53%, Trump 44%
Your voices did this. 🙂👍
ReplyDeleteCBS reports new rules for the 10/15 debate.
They can cut off someone's mic if needed.
I think it would be even better if said participant were locked in a clear box so we could see his reactions.
DeleteTrump Thinks He Won the Debate [Click]
ReplyDeleteInside Trump Campaign’s Debate Clean Up Attempt [Click]
Trump Claims He Doesn’t Know ‘Proud Boys’ [Click] And how many people are going to believe that, pray tell?
Another little news note for Trump: it is a federal crime to for unauthorized persons to monitor polling places [Click] Who could have known?
The Hill: Trump claims he won debate 'easily,' will continue debating Biden [Click]
NYT: The Greatest Threat to U.S. Democracy Is the President [Click]
"to for" should read "for" but you knew that.
Delete"Who could have known?" Not this one-time Illinois poll watcher for sure. The article, despite noting that states have different laws, seems specific to Pennsylvania. For one thing, I have no concept of what a "satellite polling place" may be. But more importantly, to the best of my recollection, no one asks who has asked you to poll watch. You simply sign in as a poll watcher. I also find the claim that poll watchers are usually paid so outrageous it almost sounds like they got that from Trump.
DeleteAnother Poll Shows Biden Clear Winner of Debate [Click]
ReplyDelete“I’m just sad with the way last night turned out. I never dreamt that it would go off the tracks the way it did.” — Fox New anchor Chris Wallace, quoted by the New York Times, on last night’s presidential debate.
No Deal on New Pandemic Relief Package [Click] As if more evidence were needed that the Administration is living in La-La Land.
Spy Chief Ignored Advice to Not Disclose Intelligence [Click] But if he doesn’t disclose what our spies know, how is Uncle Vlad to know?
Biden Unveils Transition Ethics Plan [Click] Similar to his campaign organization.
ReplyDeleteBiden Leads By Enough to Avoid Polling Misfire [Click] Click through to the underlying article for a lot more polling information.
Biden and Allies Prepare Ad Onslaught to Overwhelm Trump [Click]
Downfall
ReplyDeleteJosh Marshall
Rage, narcissism, self-loathing, fear – each vividly on display. We got a clear view last night of something very basic about this moment. The country isn’t so much facing an election as a hostage negotiation. Trump is losing, probably not just the presidency but his immunity from the law. Does [he come along] peacefully? Or is he one of those degenerates who kills his wife and kids on the way out?
If he’s going to lose he wants to burn the country down.
As my vivid and ugly analogy suggests, this isn’t strategy. It’s instinct. It’s rage.
All the more reason for him to be on Air Force One headed to his bolt hole the evening before the inauguration. Except that he probably doesn't have the brains to have prepared a bolt hole. He should have had a group studying how it was done by Batista, Marcos, Idi Amin and others. If he should actually be prepared to fly the coop and do so, I take back my disparagement of his mental capacity.
DeleteWhy Don’t Republican[Politicians] Sound Excited That Their SCOTUS Picks Might Fulfill GOP Promises? [Click]
ReplyDeleteOHIO: 153,987 cases and 4,804 deaths. I have to go hunting the stats now, they're not being shared on my usual source.
ReplyDelete3.12%
DeleteAs I was putting the trash out a little while ago I looked up and saw that the moon had just fully risen; it was full (there was just a trace of twilight left) and a beautiful orange. I figured it must be from smoke. Then as I walked back inside to fetch the remainder of the trash I wondered if it might be an eclipse. Sure enough, when I went outside again it was higher in the sky but still all orange. Just now I looked again; it is still all orange at an elevation of maybe 35 or 40 degrees, ergo lunar eclipse.
ReplyDeleteWell, the Innertubes tell me there is no lunar eclipse, so it must be that the moon is colored by smoke. But it is still very orange, so there must be an unusual amount of smoke high in the sky.
DeleteToo much smoke still if it gives an eclipse effect. 😕
DeleteYep. Not bad at ground level, though.
Delete‘The Family’ is Worried Brad Will Start Talking [Click] He better--Ex-President Trump won't be granting any pardons.
ReplyDeleteTrump’s Chances Are Dwindling [Click]
Republicans Seek Distance from Trump [Click]
An Inflection Point? [Click] ““For Trump the Times story was worse than losing reelection.”
Trump Debate Performance Stokes Fear In GOP [Click] Well, Fear is OK; but Terror and Panic are even better. [Bad me.]
Tell me you’re loving this as much as I am. 😉
DeleteI am enjoying it, and look forward to enjoying it even more as it develops. I am at the moment particularly looking forward to getting my ballot--should arrive Wednesday or Thursday of next week, I think.
DeleteOur Medicare Advantage rates are going down significantly next year. I have no idea why, but I also am disinclined to look a gift horse in the mouth.
ReplyDeleteSome Neanderthal genes increase risk of severe Covid-19, study claims [Click]
ReplyDeleteO fie!
DeleteWil and I and our offspring all have 3-4% Neanderthal in our DNA.
Probably not much Bangladeshi ancestry, though.
DeleteA kindergarten and preschool teacher explain how they would have kept order in the rancorous first debate of US presidential election. [Click] Interrupting, name-calling, rule-breaking. These educators have no time for that kind of mischief. [I still favor stun belts as a backup. Maybe just a little tickle as a warning.]
ReplyDeleteAs a mom who home schooled five kids K-12, I enjoyed that!!
DeleteI couldn't understand much of it, but thought others ought to be able to.
Delete