Getting So tired of the churchgoing denigrating everyone else for not giving as much to "charity* as they do. . . . I don't know about Baptists, but for Mormons, that 10% is the *absolute* minimum you can get away with and still be a member in good standing. . . . I ALSO do NOT consider it to be charity of any kind; rather dues to belong to your community. Mormons also have various other funds which they assess you, and don't mind coming to your home and shaming you if you don't pay. The summer I was between high school and college, the stake was building a new stake house, and every family was given their share of the bill. My dad's business had gone bankrupt in the spring, he'd injured his hand on a buzz saw, and was ineligible for workman's comp (another story) and unemployment both. We were living on church welfare (food only), and selling furniture to make it. And then came the assessment.
Older boys mowed lawns and did repairs for neighbors. Younger ones sold cards, door to door. Sold toys. I donated my college fund. Community is *powerful*. . . .
puddle, I've always held the view that if you expect to be patted on the back for giving it ain't charity. Charity is giving without expectation of reward or recognition - at least in my mind.
And your story is a perfect illustration of the reason I refuse to be part of a community.
I've never been part of a church which *required* donations of any kind, much less specific amounts. The clergy I know (even the ones I'm not fond of) would never ever ask money from a family that's struggling. Quite the opposite. I've seen numerous times when the community has quietly helped an individual. Not all religious groups need be tarred with the same brush.
But sometimes that act of goodness really does touch, and produce very long standing good vibes for the giver, even if that was not the reason they acted. Can make a VERY real difference in someone's life. ♥
I can speak to the Southern Baptist churches I attended as a kid. (Note that each Southern Baptist church is independent, so you can't really extrapolate from one to another.) Tithing was occasionally mentioned, but no one seemed to take it seriously. In fact, the sermons were mostly about personal faith in Jesus Christ, with little mention of behavior at all.
You were expected to put something in the collection plate when it was passed, but in the 1940s change was minimally acceptable.
Granted I'm not the strictest Catholic in the world, but AFAIK though Protestant churches require tithes and "donations," Catholic parishes and dioces do not. There are always lots of causes and appeals, but it isn't even a hard and fast requirement that you put anything in the collection basket at Mass. If you aren't able to, or just don't want to, you don't get thrown out of the parish. People give what they can when they can, but it's not a requirement.
I agree with you Puddle about holier than thou types. Also agree that giving to the Church, its agencies etc. not being charity. If the government chooses to see it as such and allows you to write it off on your tax return, fine and dandy, but that doesn't mean it is charity.
OMG, I looked out back and there was Spinnaker on top of the beams on the back porch! A second later I saw that Mizzen was up there too!! I have no idear how they got up there, and there was no discernible way down short of falling. I had to stand on a chair and reach as high as I could and grab their underbellies to get them down. Sheesh! What's next?!
Many years ago we had two collie brothers from the same litter. We lived in a tri-level at the time. One day I found them up in the living room, trapped. They had figured out how to go UP the stairs, but couldn't figure out the DOWN. After I carried them down they avoided stairs the rest of their lives. Just as well, because when they were full-grown they stayed on the ground level and out of the bedrooms.
listener, I've been in faith groups that asked, in general, but never came after anyone. Still, I always count support of my faith group as membership. Charity is elsewhere, even if it's through that group. Always loved Quakers who always feel slightly guilty for even owning a building, lol! Also never was part of a meeting that *did* have a building that didn't have one or two homeless families living there. In NYC, they had a year round homeless shelter in their "basement". . . . manned by members.
Another reason I loved them was "The Indian Fund" which was originated in Pennsylvania when the new comers had been there long enough to realize that the land they'd purchased in good faith had been swindled from the Indians. They also knew they couldn't actually *find* the swindled families, so donated an equal amount (if/when they could)to what they'd already paid to a fund for taking care of *any* Indians that need it. Still working two hundred years later. . . . And still getting donations.
You know, everything I see is about the presidential race. At this point I am wondering bout control of the House and Senate. Maybe I've been missing it -- so much e-mail related to SF conventions coming in I can't really read all the political stuff I get (which is mostly asking for money, of course). And I know that good polls of Congressional races are hard to come by. But what's happening with the Senate? I don't know. (No Senate race in Illinois this year.)
Howard's the leader of *this* band!
ReplyDeleteGetting So tired of the churchgoing denigrating everyone else for not giving as much to "charity* as they do. . . . I don't know about Baptists, but for Mormons, that 10% is the *absolute* minimum you can get away with and still be a member in good standing. . . . I ALSO do NOT consider it to be charity of any kind; rather dues to belong to your community. Mormons also have various other funds which they assess you, and don't mind coming to your home and shaming you if you don't pay. The summer I was between high school and college, the stake was building a new stake house, and every family was given their share of the bill. My dad's business had gone bankrupt in the spring, he'd injured his hand on a buzz saw, and was ineligible for workman's comp (another story) and unemployment both. We were living on church welfare (food only), and selling furniture to make it. And then came the assessment.
ReplyDeleteOlder boys mowed lawns and did repairs for neighbors. Younger ones sold cards, door to door. Sold toys. I donated my college fund. Community is *powerful*. . . .
So nope, Mitt gets NO kudos from me. . . .
This is a screen capture from snopes (can't cut an paste snopes stuff). http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/269077_435797853144111_13884845_n.jpg
puddle, I've always held the view that if you expect to be patted on the back for giving it ain't charity. Charity is giving without expectation of reward or recognition - at least in my mind.
DeleteAnd your story is a perfect illustration of the reason I refuse to be part of a community.
I've never been part of a church which *required* donations of any kind, much less specific amounts. The clergy I know (even the ones I'm not fond of) would never ever ask money from a family that's struggling. Quite the opposite. I've seen numerous times when the community has quietly helped an individual. Not all religious groups need be tarred with the same brush.
DeleteBut sometimes that act of goodness really does touch, and produce very long standing good vibes for the giver, even if that was not the reason they acted. Can make a VERY real difference in someone's life. ♥
DeleteI can speak to the Southern Baptist churches I attended as a kid. (Note that each Southern Baptist church is independent, so you can't really extrapolate from one to another.) Tithing was occasionally mentioned, but no one seemed to take it seriously. In fact, the sermons were mostly about personal faith in Jesus Christ, with little mention of behavior at all.
DeleteYou were expected to put something in the collection plate when it was passed, but in the 1940s change was minimally acceptable.
Granted I'm not the strictest Catholic in the world, but AFAIK though Protestant churches require tithes and "donations," Catholic parishes and dioces do not. There are always lots of causes and appeals, but it isn't even a hard and fast requirement that you put anything in the collection basket at Mass. If you aren't able to, or just don't want to, you don't get thrown out of the parish. People give what they can when they can, but it's not a requirement.
DeleteI agree with you Puddle about holier than thou types. Also agree that giving to the Church, its agencies etc. not being charity. If the government chooses to see it as such and allows you to write it off on your tax return, fine and dandy, but that doesn't mean it is charity.
Susan, absolutely!
OMG, I looked out back and there was Spinnaker on top of the beams on the back porch! A second later I saw that Mizzen was up there too!! I have no idear how they got up there, and there was no discernible way down short of falling. I had to stand on a chair and reach as high as I could and grab their underbellies to get them down. Sheesh! What's next?!
ReplyDeleteMany years ago we had two collie brothers from the same litter. We lived in a tri-level at the time. One day I found them up in the living room, trapped. They had figured out how to go UP the stairs, but couldn't figure out the DOWN. After I carried them down they avoided stairs the rest of their lives. Just as well, because when they were full-grown they stayed on the ground level and out of the bedrooms.
DeleteOh my goodness, listener! Naughty kitties! I'm so glad you were able to get them down.
Deletelistener, I've been in faith groups that asked, in general, but never came after anyone. Still, I always count support of my faith group as membership. Charity is elsewhere, even if it's through that group. Always loved Quakers who always feel slightly guilty for even owning a building, lol! Also never was part of a meeting that *did* have a building that didn't have one or two homeless families living there. In NYC, they had a year round homeless shelter in their "basement". . . . manned by members.
ReplyDeleteAnother reason I loved them was "The Indian Fund" which was originated in Pennsylvania when the new comers had been there long enough to realize that the land they'd purchased in good faith had been swindled from the Indians. They also knew they couldn't actually *find* the swindled families, so donated an equal amount (if/when they could)to what they'd already paid to a fund for taking care of *any* Indians that need it. Still working two hundred years later. . . . And still getting donations.
DeleteLove the postcard showing the whole building. What a work of love, all the way round.
ReplyDeleteIn short, it's ours to lose.
ReplyDeleteYou know, everything I see is about the presidential race. At this point I am wondering bout control of the House and Senate. Maybe I've been missing it -- so much e-mail related to SF conventions coming in I can't really read all the political stuff I get (which is mostly asking for money, of course). And I know that good polls of Congressional races are hard to come by. But what's happening with the Senate? I don't know. (No Senate race in Illinois this year.)
ReplyDelete