listener ~~ question. In spiritual debate, what is "collection" vs individual redemption? Question posed by my SIL. I'd like to answer, but the terms elude me, and google isn't helping. Is it the Grace vs Works argument?
Puddle, on a tangent, or not... Seems to me there is not and cannot be a conflict between Grace or Faith and works. The one leads inevitably to the other. If you're a good person, have faith, that very fact leads you to do good things, to perform good works. And doing good works, even if you start out doing them for an ignoble reason like getting your name in the papers, eventually grows on you so you gradually start doing what's right simply because it's what's right.
In other words, as I see it, the faith vs. works thing is a meaningless debate, a distinction without a difference. But then, I always have been bad at dealing with complexity and nuance.
Hi puddle! Sorry to keep you waiting! I've been at the salt mine ALL DAY and I'm tired! T.A.R.D. tired!
I don't know but I suspect that the word "collection" is a buzz word used by evangelicals. Assuming it isn't about passing the plate on Sunday morning (LOL), it might mean the gathering up of the "Elect" on the "Last Day" or it could be another term for the Elect...which is a theology I do not subscribe to. In all my years in and out of the Church, I haven't heard the term used.
Perhaps it has to do with spirituality that is centered on the group versus the individual. Most clergy I know would say that it's a both/and. We come into the world one at a time and we leave the same way. So individual redemption is not to be understated. Yet we are also "one with all that exists" so the whole of creation (or in their usage maybe just "the Elect"?) need to be considered as well. The Hebrew people thought of themselves as a people, not a group of individuals, so many of the early Christian ways were based on this understanding of the smallest unit being the group, like one's local synagogue.
To whatever extent it's connected to "the Elect" it could be a grace vs works thing. Can you say something about the context in which it's being used?
I recommend that whenever she tosses you a term you can't decipher that you ask her to explain what she means by it. It would be interesting to see if she CAN explain it. Some folks just repeat what they hear.
It's on my thread about which writer we write like. David Foster Wallace committed suicide. He had suffered clinical depression his whole life, and the docs were messing with his meds. When he tried to go back to the one that *had* been working, it no longer worked, and he killed himself. My take was that in such an instance, free will was likely off the plate. That prompted: "Shirley Mecham Larsen I'm just wondering if you believe in collection or individual redemption. Certainly our lives should be spent in service to others." Perhaps it's a new Mormon term. It wasn't around when I was a member. But the church has changed a lot since then -- some for the good, some not so good.
But I like your response above. For me, me deep and abiding belief is that we get *all* the chances we need to make it right. I never gave up on a kid of *mine* and condemned him to hell forever. I figure if I've got that much right, how much more the Universe has got it right than I can dream of. I feel *nothing* but love from that direction.
You make an excellent point that in matters of mental illness free will is likely not functioning. What an excellent and succinct way to have a little understanding and begin to forgive such actions as suicide and even some murders. Not too soon, of course. It necessarily takes awhile to work through the horror and grief in a healthy way.
In the end, it is love that leads us through that valley.
'Bout time for Howard to be first, again!
ReplyDeleteIt's always time for Howard to be first.
ReplyDeletelistener ~~ question. In spiritual debate, what is "collection" vs individual redemption? Question posed by my SIL. I'd like to answer, but the terms elude me, and google isn't helping. Is it the Grace vs Works argument?
ReplyDeletePuddle, on a tangent, or not... Seems to me there is not and cannot be a conflict between Grace or Faith and works. The one leads inevitably to the other. If you're a good person, have faith, that very fact leads you to do good things, to perform good works. And doing good works, even if you start out doing them for an ignoble reason like getting your name in the papers, eventually grows on you so you gradually start doing what's right simply because it's what's right.
ReplyDeleteIn other words, as I see it, the faith vs. works thing is a meaningless debate, a distinction without a difference. But then, I always have been bad at dealing with complexity and nuance.
Damn software just ate a long involved answer to you, Cat. Haven't the heart to reconstruct it. Echo is hitting the wall. . . .
ReplyDeleteOoh, I *hate* that!
ReplyDeleteSometimes I write in Word, especially when I know either my computer or the place I'm posting is being temperamental.
Hi puddle! Sorry to keep you waiting! I've been at the salt mine ALL DAY and I'm tired! T.A.R.D. tired!
ReplyDeleteI don't know but I suspect that the word "collection" is a buzz word used by evangelicals. Assuming it isn't about passing the plate on Sunday morning (LOL), it might mean the gathering up of the "Elect" on the "Last Day" or it could be another term for the Elect...which is a theology I do not subscribe to. In all my years in and out of the Church, I haven't heard the term used.
Perhaps it has to do with spirituality that is centered on the group versus the individual. Most clergy I know would say that it's a both/and. We come into the world one at a time and we leave the same way. So individual redemption is not to be understated. Yet we are also "one with all that exists" so the whole of creation (or in their usage maybe just "the Elect"?) need to be considered as well. The Hebrew people thought of themselves as a people, not a group of individuals, so many of the early Christian ways were based on this understanding of the smallest unit being the group, like one's local synagogue.
To whatever extent it's connected to "the Elect" it could be a grace vs works thing. Can you say something about the context in which it's being used?
I recommend that whenever she tosses you a term you can't decipher that you ask her to explain what she means by it. It would be interesting to see if she CAN explain it. Some folks just repeat what they hear.
Hey wait. Could she mean collective vs individual redemption?
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't argue for individual redemption based on works. I'd argue for it based on love.
Puddle, I presume the Beck lover is your sister-in-law? My deepest sympathy!
ReplyDeleteIt's on my thread about which writer we write like. David Foster Wallace committed suicide. He had suffered clinical depression his whole life, and the docs were messing with his meds. When he tried to go back to the one that *had* been working, it no longer worked, and he killed himself. My take was that in such an instance, free will was likely off the plate. That prompted: "Shirley Mecham Larsen I'm just wondering if you believe in collection or individual redemption. Certainly our lives should be spent in service to others." Perhaps it's a new Mormon term. It wasn't around when I was a member. But the church has changed a lot since then -- some for the good, some not so good.
ReplyDeleteBut I like your response above. For me, me deep and abiding belief is that we get *all* the chances we need to make it right. I never gave up on a kid of *mine* and condemned him to hell forever. I figure if I've got that much right, how much more the Universe has got it right than I can dream of. I feel *nothing* but love from that direction.
Yep. She's also a lovely lady in many ways. As I mentioned: she's Megan's mother (a girl I adore) and Tanner's grammie.
ReplyDeleteThink I'll start saving everything before I post it here. . . .
ReplyDeleteYou make an excellent point that in matters of mental illness free will is likely not functioning. What an excellent and succinct way to have a little understanding and begin to forgive such actions as suicide and even some murders. Not too soon, of course. It necessarily takes awhile to work through the horror and grief in a healthy way.
ReplyDeleteIn the end, it is love that leads us through that valley.
I'm wiped out. Gonna veg a little then get to sleep early. ♥
ReplyDeleteOkay, one last post, just to make your night:
ReplyDeleteIf you can see sky tonight and live in the area indicated on the map, watch for Northern Lights:
http://www.space.com/spacewatch/aurora_cam.html
Better tomorrow night, they say. I can't see beyond local storms yet, but I'm hopeful.
ReplyDeleteGood news from PayPal: the parade will get its money back. No explanation offered for what happened.
ReplyDeleteRaining here. Soft, gentle, but rain. No Northern Lights for *me*!!
ReplyDeleteHurray!
ReplyDelete