Paul Hackett interview, Part 3

This is the third part of the interview Ohio 2nd did with Paul Hackett, in Paul's Ford truck, outside campaign headquarters, right after he dropped out of the Senate race. I should tell you that I didn't set out to transcribe what turned out to be a half hour interview, and, in fact, the first part I transcribed yesterday, I did some lengthy excerpts but by no means did I take down all of it. But the more I listened, the more I kept thinking this was good stuff, and I wanted people to have the opportunity to read what Paul had to say about these issues. I will tell you up front that while I was initially a supporter, I was troubled by some things he had said, for example, about immigration. So I was hoping to learn more. I was hoping for more of a dialog. A primary, even. Anyway I, along with my husband who got to hear all of this as I transcribed it, was very impressed with the many thoughtful, eloquent responses Paul gave, especially considering the fact that he had been up all night. This is the most impressed we've been with one of his interviews.
-----------
Ohio 2nd: Watching you in the special, and watching you in the Senate, the thing that kind of struck me was that, in your heart you were a team player--that you didn't really like buckling against leadership. You started out by reaching out to the county chairs and made a real effort to play ball with everybody. So it kind of struck me as odd for you to be a rebel against leadership in this race.

Hackett: Well, I didn't start off as a rebel--

Ohio 2nd: Right.

Hackett: --in this race, I'd like to highlight. I was, as you know, encouraged by Senator Schumer and Senator Reid to get into this race. And, you may or may not know this, their wives called my wife, and told my wife that she's got to sacrifice and that I've got to sacrifice again for my country. And those are powerful words and pleas to a guy like me. And so, I did feel betrayed. Again, you can call me a crybaby--I'm just tellin' you how I feel--when they removed their support from me and shifted it to Sherrod Brown. Yeah, you bet. I felt betrayed. You know what? I'm a human being. I'm a human being. I bleed like everybody else, I've got emotions like everybody else, and yeah I felt betrayed by that. And struggled with how do we move forward effectively and successfully.

Ohio 2nd: What's your advice to all the people coming back from Iraq right now, working with the DCCC?

Hackett: Continue to work with them, and continue to get whatever support you can get from them, but at the same time most realistically realize ultimately you're on your own. I think that's a relatively fair unemotional appraisal of the reality. I don't think it's hypercritical, but at the same time I don't think it's naive. Work with them, get what you can from them, but realize that on any given day you're ultimately on your own.

Ohio 2nd: Well, how much faith do you put in their word. I mean, this is not the first time I've heard stories of Washington leadership on stuff that they've promised.

Hackett: Yeah...right. How much faith do I put in your word? I think it depends on who we're talking about. I wouldn't give Chuck Schumer--I'll bite my tongue on the next name so as not to hamper his electability--at least in our state, I wouldn't give Chuck Schumer's word the value of more than half a cent.

Ohio 2nd: Okay, back to the 2nd. You've got Jean Schmidt, Bob McEwen, maybe Tom Brinkman--what do you think of the chances of McEwen coming back from the dead?

Hackett: Ahhh, I still would put my money on Jean Schmidt. She will be the Republican incumbant, she does not have the scandal to deal with that Bob McEwen will have to deal with, and she has got Clermont County and maybe begrudgingly Hamilton County Cincinniati business base behind her. And I think since that's where the bulk of the votes are between Clermont and Hamilton County, she will probably survive her primary again. And I don't think Tom Brinkman's got a realistic chance. He will have no connection in the rural counties and has very limited connection in the greater Hamilton County area.

Ohio 2nd: So, are you going to run again? For anything?

Hackett: Um...boy, not today! Again, you know, the interesting aspect about media is, when it's in print, anybody can superimpose their take on the printed word, because they don't hear the facial expression or hear the tone of voice. Some people get spun up about that. I certainly don't have any plans. I don't see a need for me at this point. I don't know how to say it without sounding somewhat disrespectful, and I don't intend it that way, but I'm looking forward to going back to my private life. I really am. And at the same time, if I can lend a voice, particularly in a private capacity, to any of the issues I've spoken about and believe in, I'd be happy to. And if that's gay rights, fine. If that's choice, fine, and if that's second amendment rights, fine. And if that's do away with illegal immigrants, fine.

I mean, I believe in those issues, I continue to believe in them, and if anybody cares or wants my opinion, to share my opinion on those issues. But I've got no plans to run for political office. I'm not a career politician, I've never aspired to be a career politician. I aspired to step into what I saw as a void and answer a call, a very real call, to serve. And that was where my passion was--to serve. It's the same passion that took me into the Marine Corps, it's the same passion that got me into the congressional, it's the same passion that called me to answer the call of Reid and Schumer in the Senate race.

Ohio 2nd: You talked about illegal immigration. Can you elaborate on that, because that's probably the thing that touched off the most heated debate within the liberal wing of things.

Hackett: Man, they've got to get over it. There's 11 million illegal immigrants in the United States and there's nothing good about them. As a group. I mean, it's not a reflection of who they are as human beings. There's nothing good about illegal immigration. It's bad. It's bad for the country. And the country has to work at eliminating illegal immigration. And if we don't, it will continue to act as thumb on the scale of wages . Management's thumb on the scale of wages. It is a bad thing for America. There's nothing good about illegal immigration. It's a different conversation than legal immigration. Legal immigration is 180 degrees opposite from illegal immigration. Legal immigration is the future and lifeblood of America.

So, be honest about it, be mature about it, and accept the fact that there's nothing good about illegal immigration. And it's not a cause that either political party, in my opinion, should be advancing. And it's NOT a liberal cause. Let's work it out. Il-legal immigration. We are the Democratic party--we are for breaking the law? Give me a fucking break! It's bad. It's bad. It's got nothing to do with who you may view illegal immigrants as being. Yeah, they're human beings just like me, well, you know what, we've got starving human beings here in the United States that deserve our attention and support. And we can't be the police of the world and we can't be the hospital of the world, and we can't be the university of the world for free to those who come here illegally. If you want to participate in the American dream from outside our borders, come here legally. That's all I ask.

Ohio 2nd: So what do you do about it?

Hackett: Well, first and foremost you have to rewrite the immigration laws that were drafted in '86, and you have to strengthen the punishment against corporate America that traffics in illegal immigrants, and makes *money* off of illegal immigrants, and whose bottom line profits the rest of us taxpayers ultimately subsidize. And that's got to start first and foremost with increasing the damages and punishments for businesses and corporations that knowingly or have reason to know that they are hiring illegal immigrants. Because that is what continues in part to draw illegal immigrants to our borders.

Ohio 2nd: Okay, look. Ohio is so screwed up--the numbers are so bad for Ohio, and yet the Republicans control everything, and the poll numbers put the Democrats as doing no better than Republicans. What are we missing? What is the Democratic party missing that we're not selling ourselves?

Hackett: Well, I would even go further to say that the poll numbers don't even have the Democrats today keeping pace with the Republicans. And that's the challenge to the Democratic party and the Democratic candidates to have a message, and to meet the challenge of *inspiring* people to participate in that message and adopt that message, and see the light of that message. And then when you get done with that, as a Democrat, go find the Independents and moderate Republicans that it will take to get elected statewide. And if you are incapable as a candidate or as a party in attracting the interest and then developing that interest and exciting that interest, we're going to fail again.

I'm not saying *we are going to fail again*, I'm saying if you fail to do those things, we will surely fail again!

Ohio 2nd: Are you seeing the Democrats doing that? I'm missing it.

Hackett: As a statewide party, no. On the campaign trail, I've seen out there examples of those who seem to me at least to be making that connection, and whether or not they will get the support of the Democratic party statewide behind them in order to get the victory, that's a totally different conversation.

Ohio 2nd: Like who?

Hackett: Sibodh Chandra. And I like Sibodh and I like Mark Dann. I like 'em both and I'm not endorsing. I'm just saying Sibodh is a classic example of a guy who's an outsider, even though he's been elected and has been involved in politics, he's generally viewed as an outsider. Doesn't have a profile that superficially generates the support that my profile superficially generates. And, that's wrong. Because he's smart--again, I'm not endorsing him over Mark Dann--but just by way of example. He's smart, he's articulate, and he's experienced and eminently qualified to be Attorney General. That, again, is not to suggest that Mark Dann is not, but he does not generate the internal party support because he's Indian and therefore the assumption is that he cannot connect in the rural counties, and he's simply not a party insider. So he's not getting the support that he would otherwise receive.

Ohio 2nd: Now, you turn off the microphones and you talk to Democratic insiders, and you ask them about Chandra and Blackwell and stuff like that, and the assumption is that, when you get right down to it, most Ohio voters are racists, and they'll vote based on skin color. And that's the real tactic of how we're going to win and why Chandra would never win. Is Ohio really that racist?

Hackett: You know, I don't think so. I don't really agree with that presumption.

Ohio 2nd: I mean, I've heard it a lot. Am I know only person that's heard it?

Hackett: I don't know. I don't know how then you explain the success of a Ken Blackwell based on that very, forgive me, superficial premise. I mean, he's been involved in local and statewide politics for decades, successfully. So, I don't know. Maybe there's code language involved that I'm not giving credit to. I would hope that Ohio is not that racist.

Ohio 2nd: So you think that when push comes to shove and somebody's as qualified as Chandra and as charismatic as Chandra, if he went before Ohio for statewide office, you think he could do it?

Hackett: I think with a supportive party he could, yeah.

Ohio 2nd: I absolutely do. I mean, it would take a lot of energy, but I think it could happen.

Hackett: He's got it. He's got the energy.

Ohio 2nd: But it's not going to happen.

Hackett: My gut tells me that as well.

Ohio 2nd: He's not getting the support at all.

Hackett: That's my sense as well. I suspect that in the last couple of weeks he's been getting pressure similar to mine, albeit probably not on the same national scale that I've been getting it.

Ohio 2nd: Well, then what can you attribute that to besides racism?

Hackett: I think to go back to the Blackwell example, he's an outsider running against an insider. And again, I'm not trying to cryptically bang on Mark Dann. We've just fallen on this obvious example of an insider versus an outsider.

Ohio 2nd: There's a lot of concern that when the Democratic ticket comes before statewide office, there's going to be a lot of people accusing them of promoting basically White males. Is that going to stick?

Hackett: I don't think so. I mean, I see the superficial conclusion based on who's out there running around. It's certainly one of many conclusions that you can draw. Maybe I'm just being insensitive to it but, I don't think so. I mean, I don't hear that.

Ohio 2nd: I hear a lot of bitterness over the way Mike Coleman was treated, a lot of problems with the ODP party chair, how Stephanie Tubbs Jones was treated, all the heckling at the chair meeting...

Hackett: I did not see that, but now that you mention it, I've heard those same stories too. And I don't know, maybe you've got a point there. I don't know, I've not sat around and analyzed that aspect of it. I've been a little bit occupied these days.

Ohio 2nd: I'm just not hearing the fences being mended, and I think they're very important fences to maintain.

Hackett: I don't disagree.

Ohio 2nd: Any encouraging words for all the incredibly pissed off people on the net?

Hackett: Um, well--they make a difference. And they should continue to participate. And together we *can* make a difference and make a change. We can do it. And, you know, I think the reality is we all play different roles and then sometimes, at least speaking for myself, we don't realize, or I didn't realize, what exactly my role would be. And I'm content with my role if my role was to get people excited and get people in, and to, metaphorically speaking, punch a hole through which others may run. And, if that is what I was able to accomplish, that's it. That's good. That's not bad.

Ohio 2nd: Cool.

Alternate link for comments